Lifesaver water bottle

Aussie123

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Hard to say. Filters like Lifestraw and Sawyer seem to be able to filter a much larger volume of water.

Lifesaver talk about 4000 L, but then mention that the carbon filter only lasts 250 L !
...but, having a carbon filter is good ...

What do you see and the pros and cons ?
$ per L ?
 

Lifecraft

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What do you see and the pros and cons ?
Biggest "pro" I took away from the video is the filtration particle size. Apparently smaller than the smallest known virus, meaning all viruses and bacteria will be filtered out.

However I'm wondering whether other devices can match that at either a) better price or b) more convenience.

The video was quite impressive. Taking water containing a bunch of fairly gross stuff, including rabbit feces and stuff he said was from a sewage plant, and after filtering it he drank it.
Seems like he's fairly confident in its abilities. I find that public demonstration more convincing than simply making claims. If he faked any part of it I'm guessing the TED audience would have been clever enough to call him out on it.


Compared to the life straw, I like that this device can be used to fill up another container. I'm not sure if the life straw can do that. Part of the compromise is the life straw is a lot smaller as far as I can tell.


I've never actually boiled or filtered water to purify it for drinking. I've been lucky enough to spend most of my time in the bush (and even places I've lived) near creeks and rivers known to be clean enough to drink. (With a few exceptions where I brought a drum of water with me while car camping and unsure of the water quality because I was in an unfamiliar place.)
I've never had a problem doing so.

That does limit my options and range not having a filter. It would be nice to be able to go anywhere, find a puddle, dig for water, etc. and be able to purify it.

I do know of one spot I camped where it's too high for a creek or river, but there's a fairly stagnant pond/dam (I think it was put there to drain water away from the dirt road).
It should be fine to boil and drink, but I certainly wouldn't be drinking it without sterilization/purification. I don't even think I'd want to drink it after boiling it unless it was filtered to some extent, but I would if I was dying of thirst.
Would be advantageous if I had the option of drinking that, but with more purification than simply boiling it to kill bacteria, and without having to expend the time/energy to boil it.
 
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biggles1024

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I'm skeptical of any filter that claims to be able to filter viruses. Viruses are much smaller than bacteria but it would be great if it could.
 
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Lifecraft

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I'm skeptical of any filter that claims to be able to filter viruses. Viruses are much smaller than bacteria but it would be great if it could.
I'm skeptical too, which is part of the reason I posted it here and asked for feedback especially in comparison with other systems, and their capabilities.

The claim is that unlike most existing filters which barely filter out bacteria at around 200nm (claim made at about 2:50 in the video in the original link) that this system filters down to 15nm (approx 3:15 in the video in the original link).

If it's correct then it does appear it possibly does filter out all viruses, as well as bacteria.
But I don't know for sure whether it's accurate.

I'd like to see independent reviews/testing/etc. of the claims.
 
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swampy99

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I have one. They are good but are quite large to carry around. Due to that alone I have it up for sale. Only had rainwater from a tank through it and only 2 L has spare nipple and grease with it I'll take $50 for it plus p&p but we could come to a deal I just want to get rid of it.
 

Lifecraft

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I have one. They are good but are quite large to carry around. Due to that alone I have it up for sale. Only had rainwater from a tank through it and only 2 L has spare nipple and grease with it I'll take $50 for it plus p&p but we could come to a deal I just want to get rid of it.
I wondered about the size/weight in relation to its effectiveness. If it's too heavy or bulky it can be impractical.

Are you aware of any smaller options that have the same claims in terms of filtering out viruses?
 

DylanMC

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I've got a Sawyer Mini. It only arrived the other day but I filtered some water from a muddy puddle and drank it. It tasted perfectly fine to me and I didn't get sick. If the rain was less recent and the water more stagnant I would have boiled it as well.

I do believe very strongly i the capabilities of filters, but I also know their limits. For the size and bulk I'd probably just go for a Sawyer Mini and fill everything up from a 3l collapsible water bottle. Its smaller and cheaper.
 

Jeepcreep

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I'm pretty skeptical all the way around,but if test prove its ability ,who am I to question.I personally believe the best filtration all the way around may be distillation.Having worked many years in an industry dealing with distillation,I am convinced it is the safest.I am thinking a small portable compact distillation unit would be a nice accesory to have in the backpack.Im not sure there are any on the market,perhaps someone knows of one?
 

Aussie123

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Check out what the CDC have to say about virus and bacteria sizes:

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/household_water_treatment.html
....
Microfiltration

A microfiltration filter has a pore size of approximately 0.1 micron (pore size ranges vary by filter from 0.05 micron to 5 micron);
Microfiltration has a very high effectiveness in removing protozoa (for example, Cryptosporidium, Giardia);
Microfiltration has a moderate effectiveness in removing bacteria (for example, Campylobacter, Salmonella, Shigella, E. coli);
Microfiltration is not effective in removing viruses (for example, Enteric, Hepatitis A, Norovirus, Rotavirus);
Microfiltration is not effective in removing chemicals.


Ultrafiltration

An ultrafiltration filter has a pore size of approximately 0.01 micron (pore size ranges vary by filter from 0.001 micron to 0.05 micron; Molecular Weight Cut Off (MWCO) of 13,000 to 200,000 Daltons). Ultrafiltration filters remove particles based on size, weight, and charge;
Ultrafiltration has a very high effectiveness in removing protozoa (for example, Cryptosporidium, Giardia);
Ultrafiltration has a very high effectiveness in removing bacteria (for example, Campylobacter, Salmonella, Shigella, E. coli);
Ultrafiltration has a moderate effectiveness in removing viruses (for example, Enteric, Hepatitis A, Norovirus, Rotavirus);
Ultrafiltration has a low effectiveness in removing chemicals.


Nanofiltration

A nanofiltration filter has a pore size of approximately 0.001 micron (pore size ranges vary by filter from 0.008 micron to 0.01 micron; Molecular Weight Cut Off (MWCO) of 200 to 2000 Daltons); Nanofiltration filters remove particles based on size, weight, and charge;
Nanofiltration has a very high effectiveness in removing protozoa (for example, Cryptosporidium, Giardia);
Nanofiltration has a very high effectiveness in removing bacteria (for example, Campylobacter, Salmonella, Shigella, E. coli);
Nanofiltration has a very high effectiveness in removing viruses (for example, Enteric, Hepatitis A, Norovirus, Rotavirus);
Nanofiltration has a moderate effectiveness in removing chemicals.

....
 

biggles1024

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An excellent post, Aussie123. I was hoping someone would be able to find information like that because my searches turned up nothing of any real value. I would be very interested in how much the flow rate through the various filter sizes varies and if filtering below the micro level was a truly viable option.

I'm thinking I will go with a combination of UV and boiling when boiling is possible which isn't all that often during the fire danger period here in Victoria. I'll have to think of an alternative to boiling during that time to work in conjunction with UV delivered by a Steripen.

Cheers,

b.
 

kiwibro

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Clear plastic drink bottle. Fizzy and so forth. Fill with water. Leave in sun for 8 hours. Was a link to a big article on this around the forum somewhere. Don't get ya knickers twisted about leeching stuff the same article disproved that. But a filter to remove sediment would still be required. Filter then uv treat and away you go.
 

biggles1024

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Clear plastic drink bottle. Fizzy and so forth. Fill with water. Leave in sun for 8 hours. Was a link to a big article on this around the forum somewhere. Don't get ya knickers twisted about leeching stuff the same article disproved that. But a filter to remove sediment would still be required. Filter then uv treat and away you go.
I'm familiar with using the sun to provide the UV but it's the 8 hours that's the problem. I couldn't accomplish that where I most often find myself even if only because the tree canopy limits the amount of sunlight that reaches me. I am of course thinking of being on the move. If I were in a base camp, it would be a different matter and using the sun would be entirely practical.

Another consideration is that I've been going bush for nigh on 45 years. During that time much has changed including the desirability of treating water that I would once have drunk straight from a creek with no concern and no ill affects.

With regard to the various methods available, I've used all of them at one time or another and I am, as the young folk are wont to say, 'over it'. I want a method that is effective, reliable, fast and easy. ( I told youse I'm gettin' old) Technology can provide that and so that is the direction I'm turning to and the reasons why. :)
 

kiwibro

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Quick effective and easy. Bleach to kill germs and things. Drink from a carbon filter bottle like what are at bigw to filter out muck. Goes alright. Only takes a few drops of bleach to clean a liter. And take some of your favourite flavor cordial. The bleach isn't the best taste.
Edit: I have used this method. Still standing. Happy to do it again. Now if only it would turn saltwater to fresh water.
 

Lifecraft

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Quick effective and easy. Bleach to kill germs and things.
I do wonder about how that impacts the good bacteria, etc. in the digestive system.
They're critical for us to properly digest food, etc.

It would be interesting to know how it compares to something like drinking alcohol. I don't completely know how much damage it does either, and yet I still enjoy beer without hesitation.

The effect might be insignificant. Maybe someone else knows more.

If I was really desperate I'd probably use bleach rather than drink dodgy water. But I don't think I'd want to make it a regular practice because of the concern I raised.
 

Aussie123

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I do wonder about how that impacts the good bacteria, etc. in the digestive system.
They're critical for us to properly digest food, etc.

It would be interesting to know how it compares to something like drinking alcohol. I don't completely know how much damage it does either, and yet I still enjoy beer without hesitation.

The effect might be insignificant. Maybe someone else knows more.

If I was really desperate I'd probably use bleach rather than drink dodgy water. But I don't think I'd want to make it a regular practice because of the concern I raised.

Bleach breaks down over time. If you have a weak dilution of bleach (added to water for treatment) the bleach will break down and not be harmful - over time.

The amount of time this takes will depend on the concentration of the solution, temp, sunlight exposure and how "dirty" the water is.
If you are going to use bleach to treat water, or any other water treatment, follow the manufacturer's guidelines; esp with bleach, if they don't give any guidelines, don't use that product, there may be other additives in it making it unsuitable.



Generally most chemical water treatments recommend leaving the water to sit to allow time for the active agents to start to break down. I don't have any specific data, but (from my experience) overnight is better than the usual 30 min to 1 hr - if you can wait.

Don't over-treat the water or you may end up with residual chemicals which you probably don't want to consume.
 
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Cam

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Hi all,

There have been a few discussions on this topic over time, so a search through the forum may turn up some gold.

SODIS is the method of using sunlight to purify water. Google it and you can find some good info -here is what i recall from memory: you need to use certain types of plastic (e.g. Number 1 recyclable is ok). Or glass. It needs to be totally clear (so no labels or coloured glass) and straightsided (so no ripples likes in the old coke bottles). The water can't be too turbid (you should be able to see newsprint through it). It needs (from memory) 6-8 hours of solid direct sunlight to achieve 60%+ kill off of bacteria. Some of this is from UV, some is from pasteurization of the water. Fill bottle 75% full, then shake vigorously, then top up to full and cap and leave in sun. If the sunlight isn't direct or the air is cold then you need much longer. Putting the bottles on corrugated iron sheeting or reflective surfaces can also help.

It isn't a perfect solution but is a backup/better than nothing solution. I haven't tried it.

Bleach - as noted it degrades and can lose most of its effectiveness within 6 months to a year of being made. Sunlight speeds this along. It needs to be the chlorine (liquid sodium hypochlorite) variety and must be pure. There are other types of bleach and sometimes it is mixed with other chemicals so you need to be sure of the one you have. It needs to be between 5 and 8 percent chlorine and you need a certain amount per litre/gallon (can't remember the quantity). The water needs to be non-turbid, or you need to substantially increase the quantity. You need to stir vigorously and leave sitting for 30 mins plus. If you get the amount right you apparently end up with water smelling slightly of chlorine, not strongly, and it is then safe to drink. Google all this for specifics as it is a bit fiddly. I haven't tried it...

Be extra careful with this one as you could easily posion yourself, you may use old bleach and thus not succeed in your purification, and it doesn't kill everything I gather.

There are other 'emergency' tricks with iodine/betadine (if I recollect it is 2-4 drops of betadine per litre of water. I have had water with 2 drops with no ill effects, but I only had 2 litres in the space of an afternoon so who knows what happens over time. I also haven't tried 4 yet which is stronger for purification purposes. Other brands/strengths of iodine will require different quantities - again poison is a possibility though likely way less so than with bleach. Again look it up). Potassium permanganate (condys crystals) are another one (3-5 crystals is recommended per litre. I have gone 8-11 ok. BAsically if the water is no more than a pinky Rose wine colour you should be ok to drink it). I used potassium permanganate over about a 5 day period with almost all my water in a hot desert hike with no ill effect and no poisoning from the water so this is my preferred backup substance (and it has lots of other uses too), but again you can poison yourself if you use too much so look it up! Also, it probably does't kill everything - viruses are a particular unknown so if the water is really hideous you may just want to find a way to boil it...

Give them both between 30-60 mins to work. Cold temperatures can extend this.

I cannot stress enough that you must be careful and do your research if you are using these unconventional purification methods.

I have a lifesaver bottle now. I will try and test it out and give you a report some day :). Supposedly it is just about the most comprehensive portable water purification system on the planet, though it does seem a bit bulky and it ain't cheap. Probably you only need something like it if you are in a third world country or a flood disaster zone or something else with possible viruses in the water! Likely a bacterial filter would be enough for any normal purification scenario. Oh - it has a shelf life of about 5 years, but you need to charge it after the first 2(?). After the shelf life (or you just use it up) you can replace the filter etc with new parts and then re-use it.
 

Wentworth

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I'm familiar with using the sun to provide the UV but it's the 8 hours that's the problem. I couldn't accomplish that where I most often find myself even if only because the tree canopy limits the amount of sunlight that reaches me. I am of course thinking of being on the move. If I were in a base camp, it would be a different matter and using the sun would be entirely practical.

Another consideration is that I've been going bush for nigh on 45 years. During that time much has changed including the desirability of treating water that I would once have drunk straight from a creek with no concern and no ill affects.

With regard to the various methods available, I've used all of them at one time or another and I am, as the young folk are wont to say, 'over it'. I want a method that is effective, reliable, fast and easy. ( I told youse I'm gettin' old) Technology can provide that and so that is the direction I'm turning to and the reasons why. :)
Hi Biggles,
like you, we've gone through pretty much all the methods (MSR waterworks filter- pain to scrub the element, gravity filter- clogged quicker than I would like, Steripen- temperamental, water bottle filter- slows rate of flow so you don't end up drinking as much, iodine crystals, chlorine tabs etc.). We did use bleach once and it was fine, we just followed the instructions on the cdc website: http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/emergency_disinfection.html

We've returned to aquatabs because there's nothing to go wrong. We're picky about where we gather water and have never had an issue, if the mild bleach smell is an issue (it's not for us), we have tried neutralising both iodine and chlorine in the water with vitamin C, which works well.
 

Cam

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Aquatabs are great, I agree. Note that (I believe) they don't kill Cryptosporidium oocysts (but nearly nothing does aside from boiling, or - I think (?) Micropur tablets left for 4 hours plus? - though they can be filtered out easily as they are large by microscopic standards). However I'd say if people go aquatabas they will be fine in almost all cases, particularly if they use even a basic filiter in conjunction with the tabs.
 

Aussie123

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Aquatabs are great, I agree. Note that (I believe) they don't kill Cryptosporidium oocysts (but nearly nothing does aside from boiling, or - I think (?) Micropur tablets left for 4 hours plus? - though they can be filtered out easily as they are large by microscopic standards). However I'd say if people go aquatabas they will be fine in almost all cases, particularly if they use even a basic filiter in conjunction with the tabs.

Katadyn Micropur MP1 tablets do treat cryptosporidium.

They claim:
Destroys viruses and bacteria in 15 min., Giardia in 30 min. and Cryptosporidium in 4 hrs.
I have used them and found them good, although they are a bit more pricey than some other treatments.
 
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