Do you think as Bushcrafters we should be concerned with the state of our environment?

Do you think as Bushcrafters we should be concerned with the state of our environment?


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Le Loup

John McDouall Stuart
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Do you think as Bushcrafters we should be concerned with the state of our environment?
 

Edward

Mors Kochanski
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Good post Keith. I am far from a Greens supporter, but that does not mean I do not care and take an interest in the environment.

For example, in 2013 I engaged in a war of emails with the Qld government over hundreds of thousands of hectares of bush land they had destroyed, just for the hell of it.

I received the usual (pre-conceived) responses, excuses & refutes to everything I said, all delivered with a crocodile smile I might add. They also tried to kill me with process, which failed. I was relentless & followed my complaint to the end for 1.5 years.

...In the end the Government will do what it will do.



Land clearing in Queensland triples, 2013
 

Le Loup

John McDouall Stuart
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Good post Keith. I am far from a Greens supporter, but that does not mean I do not care and take an interest in the environment.

For example, in 2013 I engaged in a war of emails with the Qld government over hundreds of thousands of hectares of bush land they had destroyed, just for the hell of it.

I received the usual (pre-conceived) responses, excuses & refutes to everything I said, all delivered with a crocodile smile I might add. They also tried to kill me with process, which failed. I was relentless & followed my complaint to the end for 1.5 years.

...In the end the Government will do what it will do.



Land clearing in Queensland triples, 2013
We can only try & do the best we can with what we have Edward, full marks for trying mate. If only we could enlist the help of the millions of people out there we could change the world!
Keith.
 

MongooseDownUnder

Richard Proenneke
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You would think so mate, but sadly that is not the case!
Keith.
I think as bushcrafters though we are generally more responsible when outdoors than the average person. I don’t imagine anyone on this forum leaving their rubbish behind or chopping down trees unnecessarily.
 

Edward

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We can only try & do the best we can with what we have Edward, full marks for trying mate. If only we could enlist the help of the millions of people out there we could change the world!
Keith.

Thanks, but no marks needed, it was my duty.
As you say, numbers are what are needed to make a difference. Great post(y)
 
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MongooseDownUnder

Richard Proenneke
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I am actually quite concerned about rights and access being taken away from us in the guise of protecting the environment. For example I organised a camping trip with my kids this weekend, apparently due to risk of fire (it has been raining almost all week) no fires are allowed. How is taking away people’s personal responsibility helping to improve the way people treat the natural environment.
 

Randall

John McDouall Stuart
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I am actually quite concerned about rights and access being taken away from us in the guise of protecting the environment. For example I organised a camping trip with my kids this weekend, apparently due to risk of fire (it has been raining almost all week) no fires are allowed. How is taking away people’s personal responsibility helping to improve the way people treat the natural environment.
I gave up fires when I started seeing people cut down green trees around camp sites. That was 40 years ago. To me it is a thing of the past, as is fishing. The world has changed.
 

Edward

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I am actually quite concerned about rights and access being taken away from us in the guise of protecting the environment. For example I organised a camping trip with my kids this weekend, apparently due to risk of fire (it has been raining almost all week) no fires are allowed. How is taking away people’s personal responsibility helping to improve the way people treat the natural environment.

I agree. I think it is because we have some people here now with ZERO common sense and ZERO concept for environmental care, due to where & how they were raised. I obey fire-ban season dates, but I don't think we should ALL suffer for the mistakes of the ignorant few. IMO, if a man cant have a campfire when he is out bush, he isn't a man. I will NEVER give up my campfire:p
 
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Steve

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I gave up fires when I started seeing people cut down green trees around camp sites. That was 40 years ago. To me it is a thing of the past, as is fishing. The world has changed.
Why would you personally give up fires and fishing because of some stupid people, I dont understand your reasoning?
 

Steve

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I am always concious of my environment, i want the best for it but not everyone thinks like i do so i try to educate people on best practices like reuse and recycle where possible. The biggest issue i believe is one of self sufficiency, we rely far too much on resources owned operated by private entities overseas ie; privatisation of what should in essence be publicly owned and operated industry. China has stopped all shipping of plastics for recycling which Australia was dependant on for many years and we had no back up plan and just let corporations and manufacturing run riot polluting the environment because china was dealing with the waste product which when you research it most often than not the amount of plastics being recycled into china was not 100 percent, i think around 50 percent or there abouts. Councils in NSW were/are shipping hundreds of thousands of tonnes of glass to QLD because it was cheaper to dump it there due to various interstate laws, so we have an industry of waste that is self perpetuating and always seeking a "cheap" way of offloading rubbish and waste elswhere rather than dealing with the root causes, and those root causes are unfortunatly profitable and make people rich when they should not and perpetuate an income for livelihood when they should not.
 
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Randall

John McDouall Stuart
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Why would you personally give up fires and fishing because of some stupid people, I dont understand your reasoning?
Our numbers are too great for us all to be having fires. Everyone wants to take from the bush or the environment in general. I think we're a plague of the worst kind. Fishing is the same. It is a pity, but I no longer think there is room for commercial fishing and hobby anglers too. I'd just bring an end to commercial fishing. I was a keen fisher person from a young age - so I have seen the profound changes. About 15 years ago I was right into shark fishing off 90mile beach. I had a drum reel game fishing outfit. I used to catch carp, about 2 or 3 kilo, inject them with tuna oil, and paddle a whitewater kayak out beyond the reef, dragging the line out behind me - about 300m to drop the bait. I'd stay up at night refining my rigs, sharpening hooks, playing with knots. I was reasonably successful - the few others I met were stuck to the inside of the reef and envied my successes - they rarely caught anything. I'd always end up rolling trying to get through the surf, or go end over end. The shittiest weather days for some weird reason were the best. Anyway, this time made me realise, know, how poor things were, on a whole planet scale. Many sharks are migratory, travelling around the world. 90 mile beach was part of that journey for them. I was catching passing traffic. World numbers are very poor. I've seen some of the reasons, recent trips to thailand and Flores in Indonesia; everything is caught small, simply because there is nothing big. Tiny little sharks. I also went fishing to the headwaters of the avon river - full on bush bash to get there, and tiny little pools. I'd stand up in the open, and catch a fish first cast - that's when I realised all fishing used to be like this. The only difference here was no people. The world is changing so quickly now - some people see it, some don't. I would much rather see people from this forum out in the bush, instead of yobbos who just destroy everything and leave empty cans and bottles. And I acknowledge, at the end of the day, it may matter little whether we continue to live a certain lifestyle or not. I think we are hurtling in a particular direction driven by greed and arrogance. I don't know the age of people here; I'm 56. Fishing was only ever a half hour thing, river or beach. Catch a meal then go home. I often hear stories like that here in Tassie; people lining the furrows of their apple orchards with barracuda. Or feeding crayfish to their pigs. They are all old stories now from old newspapers in museums, and people read them in disbelief. Most of the bush I see has been scavenged for firewood. People don't see the value of old dead trees breaking down into rotting stuff, full of bugs and insects that birds live off. And eventually it breaks down to enrich the earth. That cycle is mostly being broken everywhere. You may think there is lots of dead stuff lying around, but you haven't seen, or you've forgotten, what it used to be like. I see some small patches of bush sometimes (rarely) where timber hasn't been collected - it really is thick with dead and rotting trees, so much so that it looks unusual, whereas it used to be usual. I can remember dragging dead little native pine trees together for a fire in the Flinders ranges; the area was so thick with them. It's wiped clean now. Or when I went to primary school, we used to catch amazing lizards - bearded dragons and blue tongues - in the school grounds. Or all the different frogs and tadpoles. And sugar gliders; amazing different animals that you just don't see anymore. We keep taking and taking, and things disappear slowly, according to our short lives, that it is easy for us to believe nothing is changing.

Sure, we can still shoot - rabbits, deer, cats, donkeys, camels, buffalo, pigs, foxes, indian mynas, starlings - and it's all a win win. Or catch carp.
 
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Edward

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Why would you personally give up fires and fishing because of some stupid people, I dont understand your reasoning?

I should of added, in the scheme of things & given how many times I get to go camping and the fact I don't always have a campfire when I do, I feel the impact on the environment is minimal. besides trees are drooping dead wood all the time. Maybe its up to our governments to stop clearing land for money, then it wouldn't be an issue at all:)
 

Steve

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Our numbers are too great for us all to be having fires. Everyone wants to take from the bush or the environment in general. I think we're a plague of the worst kind. Fishing is the same. It is a pity, but I no longer think there is room for commercial fishing and hobby anglers too. I'd just bring an end to commercial fishing. I was a keen fisher person from a young age - so I have seen the profound changes. About 15 years ago I was right into shark fishing off 90mile beach. I had a drum reel game fishing outfit. I used to catch carp, about 2 or 3 kilo, inject them with tuna oil, and paddle a whitewater kayak out beyond the reef, dragging the line out behind me - about 300m to drop the bait. I'd stay up at night refining my rigs, sharpening hooks, playing with knots. I was reasonably successful - the few others I met were stuck to the inside of the reef and envied my successes - they rarely caught anything. I'd always end up rolling trying to get through the surf, or go end over end. The shittiest weather days for some weird reason were the best. Anyway, this time made me realise, know, how poor things were, on a whole planet scale. Many sharks are migratory, travelling around the world. 90 mile beach was part of that journey for them. I was catching passing traffic. World numbers are very poor. I've seen some of the reasons, recent trips to thailand and Flores in Indonesia; everything is caught small, simply because there is nothing big. Tiny little sharks. I also went fishing to the headwaters of the avon river - full on bush bash to get there, and tiny little pools. I'd stand up in the open, and catch a fish first cast - that's when I realised all fishing used to be like this. The only difference here was no people. The world is changing so quickly now - some people see it, some don't. I would much rather see people from this forum out in the bush, instead of yobbos who just destroy everything and leave empty cans and bottles. And I acknowledge, at the end of the day, it may matter little whether we continue to live a certain lifestyle or not. I think we are hurtling in a particular direction driven by greed and arrogance. I don't know the age of people here; I'm 56. Fishing was only ever a half hour thing, river or beach. Catch a meal then go home. I often hear stories like that here in Tassie; people lining the furrows of their apple orchards with barracuda. Or feeding crayfish to their pigs. They are all old stories now from old newspapers in museums, and people read them in disbelief. Most of the bush I see has been scavenged for firewood. People don't see the value of old dead trees breaking down into rotting stuff, full of bugs and insects that birds live off. And eventually it breaks down to enrich the earth. That cycle is mostly being broken everywhere. You may think there is lots of dead stuff lying around, but you haven't seen, or you've forgotten, what it used to be like. I see some small patches of bush sometimes (rarely) where timber hasn't been collected - it really is thick with dead and rotting trees, so much so that it looks unusual, whereas it used to be usual. I can remember dragging dead little native pine trees together for a fire in the Flinders ranges; the area was so thick with them. It's wiped clean now. Or when I went to primary school, we used to catch amazing lizards - bearded dragons and blue tongues - in the school grounds. Or all the different frogs and tadpoles. And sugar gliders; amazing different animals that you just don't see anymore. We keep taking and taking, and things disappear slowly, according to our short lives, that it is easy for us to believe nothing is changing.

Sure, we can still shoot - rabbits, deer, cats, donkeys, camels, buffalo, pigs, foxes, indian mynas, starlings - and it's all a win win. Or catch carp.
I think you have over thought this. Can you back up all your claims in this post? How about some solid proof rather than your word for it.
 

Edward

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I think you have over thought this. Can you back up all your claims in this post? How about some solid proof rather than your word for it.

I agree.

I recently researched cooking methods for hikers and campers and I found and this has always been well known by authorities that (in Australia),

- 60% of consumers (campers and hikers) use gas
- 30% use spirit burners
- This means 10%, probably less IMO & experience, are either not cooking at all or are using wood fires
- Then factor in the increase in popularity of Esbit fuel cubes in stead of wood , gas or spirits
- Added to this the use of wood fire boxes has increased dramatically. These basically burn twigs, lol...
- Some people particularly in the high country are using portable pot belly tent stoves, which burn wood efficiently and at a slow rate, further minimising impact to the environment
- Add and due to the popularity of MRE's and military rations packs, now big business, I would guess some off the grid campers, who would ordinarily of had a camp fire now don't.
- The aforementioned point applies to some stealth campers which have increased in popularity recently, both in urban, rural and remote environments
- Now factor in that overnight camping has become popular, usually closer to populations, which decreases the impact on the environment & increasing the use of convenient fuels mentioned above
- The amount of real bush campers who are likely to have a camp fire are rare and getting rarer
- Lastly not everyone who goes camping cooks full stop or has the skills too

https://australianhiker.com.au/advice/which-backpacking-stove/


I further found,

-An contemporary American source I read when I was researching cooking methods, sorry I don't have it handy, said more than 70% of hikers and campers (it use to be 70% about 3 years ago) are now choosing to use gas stoves for convenience & due to fire ban restrictions.
- The remainder, approx. 24% use spirit burners the data said
- Snowy's outdoors told me a few month ago when I asked, they cannot remember when they last sold a spirit burner- they confirmed 'most everyone chooses gas now'
- The amount of people who make their own alcohol or mini twig wood stoves to save costs has increased, further reducing the impact on the environment- just see You Tube.
- National parks and tourist destination camp sites often PROVIDE wood for campers to use, put their as a a courtesy gesture by Rangers & so as to further reduce impact on the environment in places where the bulk of people are likely to camp.

Now look at Australia and the facts,
- The number of people who actually go camping (minimal)
- The amount of times they choose to go camping, not often
- The number of people who go real bush (usually remote) camping where they are likely to use wood is minuscule
- Restriction/ laws on where you can have a fire, usually near the bulk of the population anyway
- The small size of our population & the massive size of our country
- Extensive fire ban restriction seasons totally outlawing open camp fires
- National parks requiring you to bring your own wood with you (how many people do this, so they don't bother & use gas or a a spirit burner)
- Most static campers use gas and most hikers use gas, a few hikers use a spirit burner, some use twigs, virtually none use a campfire
- The relative small windows to go camping in Australia: it is either too hot or for many too cold
- OK, do I need to add that most people who may have a campfire here, would do so with respect and as minimal impact on the environment as possible and efficiently as possible. Bushcraft is a cultural thing usually handed down from father to son (and daughter) and the campfire is a central magic of that culture

Lastly, when was the last time you saw an open campfire? I saw one on the beach in 1987-1988 in a country town I lived in. I use to see them then occasionally. When people knew how to enjoy themselves without politically correct waffle:rolleyes:


I like to consider myself a die-hard bush camper who loves a campfire. Now look at this. This is the last campfire I just had, end of Winter 2018, I might add. It was in a national park. I brought my own wood with me- if you look to the bottom left of the frame behind the tree, you will see a hessian sack. That sack contained my wood. There was also wood provided there by Rangers I did not use, but I stacked it with the wood I brought I did not use and decided to leave behind. This was so lazy people or people who weren't strong enough to collate the wood, would not go looking for wood in the nearby scrub. Many have seen this picture before. I like it and I use it regularly. This and the above information does not mean I would not have a campfire where it is legal. However I think it goes a long way to providing facts and compelling opinions to supporting campfires are fine & destroying the myth that even the minuscule amount of people who are bush camping are unconsciously destroying the environment by having an occasional, if not now rare, campfire. The impact on the environment is less than insignificant, IMO & minuscule compared to what the Government is doing by clearing and outright destroying trees and land on a massive scale- Forget about the paranoia of using wood trees are constantly dropping- trees cannot drop more wood if they are destroyed. They are gone forever.


 
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